Audiophisic Vigro... Szukam recenzji

[wovo]

Witam. Czy ktoś ma recenzje Audiophisic Vigro ?? Lub ma gazete w której te kolumny były testowane i mógłby zrobić skany tego testu i podesłać mi na maila ??

A może ktoś miał do czynienia z tymi kolumnami... i raczył podzielić sięopinią i wrażeniami z ich słuchania ??

[pp]

Tutaj autorytetem w sprawie Virgo I jest arek67

[julek]

Virgo 1 są opisane w HI fi i Muzyka w numerze z 98 roku i jest tez recenzja Audionote Soro SE w połączeniu z AP Virgo chyba w styczniu 2000r.

[Frank]

Zdrowiej by było posłuchać,niżli recenzji durnowatych czytać.

JBL XTI100 posłuchać warto,mniej kasy wydasz i nie będziesz żałował.

Nie żebym gadał zle na Virgo,ale uwierz,posłuchaj,zufaj swoim zmysłom!!!!!!!

WARTO

[stefek]

Posłuchaj,posłuchaj,miałem parę lat Virgo2,w dobrym zestawieniu cięzko bedzie znależć lepsze kolumny.

[Arkadix]

Wovo =>

Jak zwykle w takich przypadkach nieoceniona jest wyszukiwarka ...... ;-)

Był taki wątek 19571 gdzie można znaleźć kilka informacji n/t Virgo.

 

pozdr.

Arkadix

[Frank]

Nie jestem w stanie dykutować z posiadaczami "Wrót Niebos"

Zbyt mały istem...............................

A niektore movią ,że to to samo co Velum!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Zydelek]

Do marsza Hi.... skiego to Panie inne.

Za drogie, za suchowate i za mało mięsiste jak dla mych preferencji. Taki niemiecki rzemiecha.

[wovo]

Tzn tak ... to jest sprzęt odsłuchowy redakcji "Hi-Fi i Muzyki" a uważam że żeby zrozumieć tych ludzi, trzeba poznac to, na czym słuchają ... jużwiecie dlaczego chce znać opinie o Virgo ?? :>

A gdybym miał kupowac to tylko Virgo 2 :)

[Gość]

idąc dalej tym tropem nakupuj tego więcej -sprzętu redakcyjnego jest więcej niźli 1 szt -to bardziej ich zrozumiesz :)

Co najmniej dziwna jest twoja motywacja?

[Hiena-podrobka]

wovo

 

Ja także jestem ich posiadaczem. Jeśli się nauczysz pisać poprawnie nazwę firmy, o którą pytasz, to będzie mi lżej na sercu. Jednak one nie są do "ostrego popa" (patrz "o mnie" wovo).

 

ps a dlaczego jeśli już kupisz:) to Virgo 2?

[Zbig]

>hiena

 

Wydawało mi się, że poprawnie jest Audio Physic...

[Hiena-podrobka]

Zbig

 

Tak jest napisane z tyłu u mnie na kolumnie, więc chyba dobrze pamiętasz, jednak w tytule wątku jest ciut inaczej.

[pitdog]

eee tam wiadomo o co chodzi

[ABs]

Virgo sa bardzo dobrymi kolumnami, niestety musialem sie z nimi rozstac i wcale nie pociesza mnie wypowiedz ze to jest najwieksza podlosc, jaka mozna uslyszec... A spotkalem sie z takimi okresleniami, czyz to nie jest przewrotne??

[soso]

Krotka opinia ze Stereophile

 

Audio Physic Virgo III loudspeaker

Brian Damkroger, September, 2003

 

I was riding BART home from Home Entertainment 2003, thinking about the day—the new products, the old friends, the rooms with really great sound. It's a long ride from downtown San Francisco to Livermore, so I next got to thinking about all of the hi-fi shows I've attended over the years and which companies, year after year, always seem to have good sound. At the top of the list were Audio Physic and its US importer, Allen Perkins' Immedia.

My BART ride wasn't the first time my mind had followed this particular track, however. In fact, I had just these thoughts last summer, when I requested a pair of Audio Physic Virgo IIIs to replace my longtime reference speakers, the Magnepan MG3.6/Rs, which Trish deemed too view-impeding to make the move to our new house. The Virgos fit the bill perfectly—a smallish, great-sounding speaker that—based on my observation that AP speakers always sound good at shows—might integrate well into my unusual, large listening space.

A German Virgo

The original Audio Physic Virgo (reviewed in the September 1995 Stereophile) was designed to a simple brief: to integrate a point-source minimonitor with a woofer, successfully merging the former's wide dispersion and precise imaging with true full-range response. This goal, and the Virgo's basic configuration, have remained constant over the years, while pretty much everything under the hood has changed. At $6995/pair, the Virgo III is now No.2 in Audio Physic's US lineup, behind the $12,000/pair Avanti IIIs, a longtime reference for Michael Fremer.

The Virgo III is a floorstanding three-way and, true to its minimonitor-plus-woofer concept, is essentially Audio Physic's Brilon minimonitor mated to a woofer assembly. The minimonitor component consists of ring-radiator tweeter custom-made for Audio Physic by VIFA, and a 4.5" aluminum-cone midrange custom-built by SEAS. The rationale behind a ring radiator—imagine a ring suspended along its inner and outer circumferences and driven along a circle midway between the two—is that it combines a large driven area with a relatively short distance between the point where the diaphragm is driven and either of the two points it's suspended. The short suspended distances reduce distortion products, and the large driven area increases sound-pressure-level capability and allows the tweeter to be used at lower frequencies. This last benefit supports AP's desire to move the midrange-tweeter crossover from 3kHz—where it could affect female vocal and violin reproduction—to a theoretically less intrusive 1.8kHz.

The aluminum midrange incorporates a bit of trickery as well, in the form of AP's unique "active cone damping" system, which puts the cone in tension and thus raises its inherent resonances to well above the audioband. As with earlier Virgo models, the midrange driver is enclosed in its own trapezoidal housing, built within the main cabinet structure.

The woofer subsystem is one of the major differences between the III and earlier Virgos, which used two sideways-firing active woofers, one facing each way, and a single port at the front of the speaker. In the III, the port is replaced by two passive radiators and each side of the cabinet houses a vertical array of a woofer and a radiator.

The Virgo IIIs come as mirror-imaged pairs, the active woofer below the passive radiator on the speakers' inner sides, the drivers flipped on the outboard sides. In another major change, the woofer assemblies are no longer mounted directly to the external cabinet, but housed in their own sealed inner cabinet of MDF, this suspended inside the external structure with elastomer to isolate the midrange and tweeter from the woofers' vibrations.

System and Setup

Audio Physic provided wonderfully straightforward instructions for setting up the Virgo IIIs, the procedure based on a clear explanation of the physics of room reflections, arrival times, and distances—see the October 1998 "Fine Tunes." Since the optimum way to avoid sidewall reflections is to keep the speakers away from the walls, and since the way to get the widest possible soundstage is to separate the speakers widely, following AP's recommendations will likely result in your speakers firing across a rectangular room's width rather than down its length. This worked well in my listening area, which—although it's actually one arm of a complex, flowing open area—is basically a rectangle 18' wide by 15' deep.

Once the speakers are roughly positioned according to the aforementioned physics, they can be moved into and out of the room to achieve the optimal tonal balance at the listening position. Finally, one speaker is moved very slightly forward and back to center the image, then rotated to—Voilà!—fine-tune and lock in the focus. I ended up with the Virgos' fronts about 4' from the front wall, 5' in from the sides of my space, and about 8' apart. This put their plane about 8' from my listening chair, which located my ears about 3' in from the back wall and about 38" above the floor—the same elevation as the Virgos' tweeters.

I experimented with a variety of room treatments, using the MATT test on Stereophile's Test CD 2 (Stereophile STPH004-2) to augment my listening impressions, and ended up with a very minimal setup. I used two Echo Busters Bass Busters—see my review elsewhere in this issue—to form a half-round centered behind the speakers, flanked by two Double Buster diffusers, the combo pretty much covering the marble-and-glass fireplace behind the speakers. I used another pair of Double Busters on the wall behind my listening chair. I experimented with Echo Busters absorber panels at the first reflection points on the sidewalls, but since I'd begun with a "physics-based" setup designed to minimize the effects of reflections, the benefits of the sidewall damping were pretty negligible.

A final tweak to the system, suggested by Allen Perkins, was to slip a set of his String Suspension Concepts isolation feet under the Virgo IIIs. At first, this greatly offended my rigidity-über-alles audiophile sensibilities—but my wood floor is very springy, and Allen wondered if the Virgos were "driving the floor," which would perhaps muddy the bass a bit and slightly blur the system's focus. Sure enough, the SSC pucks immediately tightened up the bottom end and sharpened things up.

Use and Listening

One of my earliest high-end-audio memories is hearing Joni Mitchell's Court and Spark (LP, Asylum/Nautilus 11) on a set of Rogers LS3/5a minimonitors. I was blown away. The holographic images and pinpoint detail were like nothing I'd heard before.

That memory—polished, honed, and no doubt inflated over the years—is still my gold standard for minimonitor performance. I couldn't afford the LS3/5as at the time, but I did buy the record. And since in the Virgo III Audio Physic has aimed to merge the best of minimonitor performance with full-range extension, it seemed like a good idea to dig out Court and Spark and see how the Audio Physics measured up to my golden memory.

The Virgos acquitted themselves quite well, thank you very much. I cued up "Car on a Hill," sat back, closed my eyes, and Mitchell was right there, solid, tangible, and three-dimensional. I could picture her, eyes closed, leaning into the microphone—so solid was the image that I felt as if I could stand up, lean forward, and look around her to see her from the sides and back. And the soundstage was huge—incredibly wide, deep, and open, with a great sense of clarity and air, and images that were firmly and precisely locked into their places.

But rather than my memory of the LS3/5as, the Virgo IIIs' incredible soundstage and imaging reminded me more of the Magnepan MG3.6/Rs than of the small speakers I've heard over the years. Like the Maggies, the Virgos' images were wonderfully solid and three-dimensional, but not as tightly focused as I've heard from top-flight minimonitors in the past. The Virgos' images were a little bit larger and not quite so sharply bounded, instead merging more naturally with the surrounding space.

This isn't a complaint. A frequent shortcoming of minimonitors is that their images are simply too small to credibly portray the live event—particularly a full orchestra—and often their compact, tightly focused, sharply bounded images contribute to that impression. The Virgos' slightly larger images created a much more naturally scaled portrayal—more important, one that made sense. That is, the sizes of their images and their spacing around the soundstage was consistent with the distances described by the surrounding ambience, and with the perspective between listener and instruments.

The Virgo's reproduction of detail was another area where it didn't sound like most other minimonitors. There was detail in spades—layers and layers of it—but it was inner detail, small subtleties within the fabric of the music, rather than the laser-sharp, pinpoint-located, count-the-chair-scrapes sort of detail that minimonitors are famous for. True, I could follow Joni Mitchell's head moving slightly around the mike, but I wouldn't say I could hear the air moving through her throat and mouth, or the interaction of her vocal cords with the moving column of air. The Virgo's detail just wasn't that flashy or gratuitous. Instead, it was a part of what drove the performance forward and made it come alive.

One thing that I suspect contributed to the Virgo's reproduction of detail was the sound of its ring-radiator tweeter. John Atkinson's measurements may shed some light here, but while the Virgo didn't sound closed-in or dark, it didn't seem to have the nth degree of air and extension, either. Instruments with a lot of high-frequency energy, even some female vocals, didn't pop out of the mix the way they do with the Thiel CS6, for example.

When I zeroed in on high-frequency detail—the circular motion of Frank Gant's brush on his cymbals in "What a Diff'rence a Day Makes," from Ernestine Anderson's Never Make Your Move Too Soon (CD, Concord Jazz CCD-4147), for example—it was obvious that the Virgo's tweeter was doing its job. However, it had a softer, sweeter sound than most tweeters, and reminded me more—again—of the Magnepan 3.6/R's ribbon tweeter than of a conventional dome unit.

Both Magnepan and Audio Physic use unusually low crossover points: 1700Hz for the 3.6/R, 1800Hz for the Virgo. I couldn't help wondering if the Virgo's and Maggie's softer, sweeter treble responses are related not to shortcomings in the tweeters but to inherently lower distortion.

One area where the Virgo IIIs definitely reminded me of good minimonitors was in their wide dispersion and point-source character. Although there was definitely a sweet spot, particularly in terms of focus, their overall sound remained remarkably consistent outside the sweet spot. I found that I could move quite a ways off-axis and still enjoy their performance—a benefit when you've got a new wife to share the music with.

Returning to the music, the Virgos did a fantastic job on Court and Spark. Joni Mitchell's singing wasn't just notes laid out there, or merely released to progress monotonically across the stage. Each note was crafted and shaped, some breathily released to float away into nothingness, some tightly gripped and manhandled, pulled to and fro, dragging me along with them. With the Virgos, Mitchell's singing wasn't just a performance, it was a roller-coaster ride, with her at the controls and me her passenger, hanging on for dear life. Try as I might, I couldn't ignore the music, or just sit back and let it happen. I was always drawn in, further and further, until, inevitably, I would realize I was sitting forward in my chair, gripping the armrests.

Another great showcase for the Virgo's strengths, and another record I've had since the dawn of time, was Franz Helmerson's recording of J.S. Bach's Suite No.2 in d for Solo Cello (LP, BIS LP-65). It's a wonderful performance through any speaker, with a solid, nicely detailed image, a warm, well-described acoustic, and just the right balance of size, distance, and perspective. With the Virgos, however, it was a lot more than that. Rather than something warm and mellow to sit and sip wine to, the Virgos made this recording feel like a live event. There was that same right there quality I'd felt with Court and Spark. The air and ambience seemed to have the sort of electricity that permeates a concert hall, and, as with Mitchell's singing, each note was shaped and crafted, rich with detail and subtlety.

Okay, so the Virgo III didn't quite have a traditional minimonitor's specific strengths and weaknesses—to its credit, in my book. What about the other half of its design brief: full-range performance? JA's measurements will tell the tale, but I'd guess that the Virgo was good down to about 40Hz in my room, dropping off pretty rapidly below that. It was articulate and clean at the bottom of its range, but didn't have the power and impact of a much larger speaker.

The massive gong a few minutes into Dead Can Dance's "Yulunga," from Into the Labyrinth (CD, 4AD 45384-2), was a good example. The attack was clean and the initial tone quite pure, pristine enough to hear the individual waves moving across and out from the gong. But the subsonic pressure waves that expanded out to fill the room didn't have the weight and power that I've heard from other, larger speakers. To be fair, my huge, open space is a lot bigger than the Virgo's intended environment. In something closer to the recommended 210-420ft2, and with an 8' or 9' ceiling instead of my 20' one, they should be much better able to pressurize the room and bolster the impression of deep, powerful bass.

The Virgo III was a solid performer on my other bass tests, sounding more like a good big speaker than a good little one. Listening to Henry Grimes' and Bob Cranshay's bass lines on Coleman Hawkins' and Sonny Rollins' Sonny Meets Hawk (LP, RCA/Classic LSP-2712), I noted that they were clean, warm, and woody all across their ranges. The Virgo did have a warmish tonal balance, suggesting that the 80-100Hz region might be a little more prominent than the 150-400Hz lower midrange. For example, Helmerson's cello sounded a bit bigger and woodier at the bottom of its range than up near the top. However, there was none of the thickening and one-note character of a speaker that creates the impression of bass by boosting the warmth region. And on fast, stressful passages such as the runs on Fourplay's "Bali Run," from Fourplay (CD, Warner Bros. 26656-2), the Virgo was always quick and precise, cleanly starting and stopping in plenty of time to keep up with the music.

The third aspect of merging a minimonitor and bass unit—the merging—is probably the most difficult of all. The Virgos pulled it off beautifully. Images, whether a single, full-range instrument such as a piano or an entire orchestra within a coherent acoustic space, were seamless from top to bottom. There was no hint of temporal, spatial, or textural discontinuities as the Virgos moved across the instruments' frequency ranges.

The Virgo's handling of dynamics, an area where integration often runs into snags, was similarly consistent from top to bottom, and quite good overall. The Virgo's handling of smaller-scale dynamics—the ebb and flow of a woodwind line, for example, or the intricate microdynamics of Joni Mitchell's voice—was excellent. However, the Virgo was not as explosive as some speakers I've used; its dynamic contrasts were not quite as large. But, as with the Virgo's bass performance, I attribute this more to a mismatch between my room and the speaker's intended environment than to any inherent shortcoming on their part. On Dead Can Dance's "Yulunga," the maracas that explode out of the dense, swirling mix didn't have quite the snap, didn't take my breath away, as they have with some other speakers. But given the choice between top-to-bottom consistency and that nth degree of impact, I'll take consistency any day.

Exploring whether or not the Virgo III actually does merge minimonitor strengths with full-range performance is an interesting way to dissect their performance, but it's not really the point. The point is how well a speaker succeeds in conveying the magic of a musical event. That the Virgos did very well. I threw everything at them, from the simple and achingly beautiful Mozart Clarinet Quintet in A, K.581, on Stereophile's Mosaic CD (STPH015-2), to full orchestral works, to small jazz combos, and to all-out rockers from AC/DC and Stevie Ray Vaughan. They were never less than captivating and magical. Antony Michaelson's clarinet was pure, warm, and woody, Vaughan's guitar was hot, swampy, and alive, and vocals—particularly female vocals—were as realistic and "in the room" as I've heard with any speaker, big or small. As I noted early on, Audio Physic's speakers have sounded great in every room I've heard them in. Now I can enthusiastically add my listening space to that list.

Summing Up

I wouldn't call Audio Physic's Virgo III a perfect merging of a minimonitor and full-range bass extension. It is both less and more than that. I think of the Virgo III as simply a great-sounding speaker—particularly given its compact dimensions—and an interesting point on my timeline between the Magnepan MG3.6/R (which they replaced) and the Thiel CS6 (waiting in the wings). Although the Virgo III's technology more nearly aligns with the Thiel's, the Virgo's strengths, weaknesses, and overall presentation were much more akin to the Maggie's. The sweet, delicious highs, the rich, tangible images, and the huge, three-dimensional, walk-in soundstage—all reminded me a lot of the 3.6/R's most captivating attributes. On the other hand, the Virgo didn't seem to have the incredible precision, focus, and clarity of the Thiel CS6, or its dynamic impact and power, particularly at the bottom end.

The bottom line is that the Audio Physic Virgo III is an excellent loudspeaker that I could happily live with for a long time. It's not the perfect match for my room, but even there, a pair of them worked very well, in both the audiophile and, even more, the musical senses. In a smaller room, my caveats about low bass power and dynamic impact would likely come off the scorecard.

The Audio Physic Virgo III is a well-engineered, beautifully executed, and great-sounding loudspeaker that is, to my way of thinking, fairly priced at $6995/pair. Very highly recommended.

Description: Three-way floorstanding loudspeaker. Drivers: 1" (25mm) ring-radiator tweeter, 4.5" (114mm) aluminum-cone midrange, two 6.5" (165mm) Nomex-cone woofers, two 6.5" Nomex inverted-cone passive radiators. Nominal impedance: 4 ohms. Input sensitivity: 90dB/W/m. Frequency response: 34Hz-40kHz, +0/-3dB. Recommended input power: 25-150W. Recommended room size: 210-420ft2. Connections: rear panel, single-wire terminals, 5-way binding posts.

Dimensions: 40" (1010mm) H by 6" (150mm) W by 16" (410mm) D. Weight: 66 lbs (30kg).

Finishes: Black ash; add $500/pair for cherry, light maple, or rosenut.

Serial numbers of units reviewed: 3081A/B.

Price: $6995/pair. Approximate number of dealers: 25. Warranty: 5 years, transferable.

Manufacturer: Audio Physic J Gerhard GmbH, 59929 Brilon, Germany. Tel: (49) 02961-961-70. Fax: (49) 02961-516-40. US distributor: Immedia, 1101 Eighth Street, Suite 210, Berkeley, CA 94710. Tel: (510) 559-2050. Fax: (510) 559-1855. Web: www.immediasound.com.

 

 

pzdrw

 

soso

[wovo]

Hiena-podrobka... nazwa AudioPhisic jest poprawna ... sam kiedyś mysłałem że to Audiophisic ... ale nie.

A z tym popem toś wyskoczył ... które kolumne dobrze popa nie zagrają ?? Pop to bardzo uniwersalna, łatwa i prosta muzyka.

Poza tym nie słucham za dużo popu ...

[wovo]

... a "o mnie" warto czytać w całości z reszta jak wszystko, a nie wybiórczo.

[grzegorz]

Sorry, ale nie mogę czasami wytrzymać. Facet (hiena) strofuje kogoś za niewłaściwą pisownię, a sam w "O mnie" pisze "Audio Physi_K_". Żenada

[Zydelek]

Nie ma co się sprzeczać o pisownię. Ważne, że każdy wie o jakie głośniki chodzi. Swoją drogą dziwię się ahami i ohami na ich temat.Wielokrotnie słuchałem na miejscu u siebie i jeszce na Saskiej Kępie. Nawet z drogą elektronika i na hiper kablach Tary brzmiały precyzyjnie, owszem bas schodził nisko, ale brakowało zawsze tej masy,potęgi i homogeniczności. Gdyby posiadały one te cechy byłyby w moim odczuciu super. A tak są jedynie dobrym rzemiechą, ale nie artystą. Odpowiednikami takiego grania są np. Siltechy, Stereovoxy itp. Czy naprawdę aż tak bardzo lubicie takie brzmienie bez wypełnienia??? Nawet nie dopuszczam myśli bym mógł połączyć takie głośniki z podobnie brzmiącą elektroniką brrr.

[julek]

O kolumienkach tej firmy już tu troche było. Ktoś bardzo trafnie ją określił jako Dyzmę świata Audio(czy jakos tak). Jak zdążyłem zauważyś to ta firma stosuje do napompowania przestrzeni prostacki chwyt tj. w tej samej przestrzeni co na wielu innych kolumnach rozmieszcza mocno odchudzone instrumenty i tym sposobem subiektywnie wydaje sie scena muzyczna jest ogromna. To samo zauważyłem też w tanich imitacjach hi endowych wzmacniaczy jak np. creek 4330 czy Sphinks Myth 3. Pierwsze wrazenie jes super. Drugie wrażenie to to ze nic nie słychać.

 

I jeszcze jedno.

Niedobrze mi sie robi o tych angielskich cytatów. jeszcze nigdy nie widziałem na tym forum cytatu z jakiegos polskiego pisma a przecież przez te pare lat troche nasi wydawcy napłodzili. No ale tu wszyscy polski znają i nie było by sie czym pochwalić. Zawsze omijam takie pretensjonalne wstawki choć wiele z nich byłbym w stanie zrozumieć bo coś tam tego jezyka liznalem.

[pitdog]

>julek a nasze pisma umieszczaja swoje testy na stronkach? na hfm troche jest, ale niewiele tego. strony www naszej prasy sa w okresie niemowlecym, tak samo jak niektore aspekty tej prasy...

[julek]

pitdog

 

Nie będę sie spierał która prasa lepsza ale skoro ktoś juz zna dobrze angielski to czy to taki wielki problem wklepać tekst po polsku? No chyba że tekst jest bardzo długi(jak np. wpis .soso) i sie go skanuje ale często to jest dosłownie pare zdań. Czy wyobraza ktos sobie sytuację na jakimś spotkaniu że nagle ktoś ni z gruszki ni z pietruszki zaczyna mówić po francusku nie bacząc czy go ktos rozumie czy nie?(pomijam te sytuacje w których towarzystwo jest międzynarodowe)

[pitdog]

na spotkaniu nie, na forum - tak. czy na spotkaniu bys sie przedstawil jako julek a ja jako pitdog? LOL (to tez z angielska, niestety...sorry)

a tlumaczyc z angielskiego? wybacz, mi by sie nie chcialo. uczyc sie, uczyc ;)

chocbys nie wiem jak sie obrazal i naburmuszal, to jest miedzynarodowy jezyk. wklejenie cytatu po angielsku ma tyle wspolnego z pretensjonalnymi wstawkami, ile pretensjonalnej tresci w tym cytacie. gosc pytal o virgo, kolega soso wkleil recenzje i tyle, nalezy docenic wysilki soso :) nie czepiac sie

[julek]

Po pierwsze nie ucz mnie czego ja mam sie uczyć. Może właśnie dlatego że nie przedstawiamy sie z imienia i nazwiska przechodzą takie poipsy. Jezyk angielski nie jest miedzynarodowy ale po prostu popularny bo stosunkowo łatwiejszy do nauczenia(przynajmniej w stopniu komunikatywnym) od np francuskiego czy polskiego. Pokazywanie wszystkiego co sie potrafi przy byle okazji nie jest przejawem wielkiej inteligencji. Dziwne że chciałoby ci sie wklepać taki długi tekst po angielsku a po polsku juz nie. No chyba że sie zna język tyle o ile i tłumaczenie nastreczałoby problemów.

[Zydelek]

Popularny a międzynarodowy to różnica. Jedynym miedzynarodowym językiem jest język esperanto:):)

Salonowym językiem arystokracji był i jest zawsze język francuski.

Jeśli ktośnp. bywał w kasynach w Monte Carlo, to z pewnością zauważył tam wszędzie!!! tabliczki wpierw w j. francuskim, poniżej w rosyjskim. Napisy angielskie, niemieckie i hiszpańskie spotyka się sporadycznie:):)

Natomiast whameryce północnej obok angielskiego językiem urzędowym jest j. hiszpański:):)

Angielski nie jest z całą pewnością, zadnym międzynarodowym.

[Zydelek]

Popularny a międzynarodowy to różnica. Jedynym miedzynarodowym językiem jest język esperanto:):)

Salonowym językiem arystokracji był i jest zawsze język francuski.

Jeśli ktośnp. bywał w kasynach w Monte Carlo, to z pewnością zauważył tam wszędzie!!! tabliczki wpierw w j. francuskim, poniżej w rosyjskim. Napisy angielskie, niemieckie i hiszpańskie spotyka się sporadycznie:):)

Natomiast whameryce północnej obok angielskiego językiem urzędowym jest j. hiszpański:):)

Angielski nie jest z całą pewnością, zadnym międzynarodowym.

[julek]

Temat posługiwania sie tu nie dla wszystkich zrozumiałymi jezykami wydaje mi sie dosc istotny wiec wiec zaloże watek na bopcznicy bo tutaj on chyba jednak niebardzo pasuje

[Gość]

Po prostu jest to czysta bufonada:(

[Hiena-podrobka]

wovo

 

Poprawnie jest tak, jak napisałem a nie tak, jak Ty piszesz. I innej prawdy nie ma.

 

 

grzegorz

 

Naprawdę, musiało Ci się coś pomylić. Jestem rodzaju żeńskiego a w "o mnie" to zły Lukar mi podsunął chochlika, ale na szczęście juz poprawił.

 

 

A tak już na poważnie. Virgo posiadam już troszkę czasu i obok niezaprzeczalnych zalet (lekkość, zwiewność, zrównoważenie tonalne, świetna przestrzeń (choć być może rzeczywiście sztucznie wytworzona)) mają też sporo wad, o których trafnie wspomniał Zydelek. Arek mnie może zabije:), ale brak im masy, wypełnienia, mięsistości, rozmachu, potęgi. Z Passem zgrały się fantastycznie, natomiast ze Sphinxem Project 12 (monobloki plus pre Project Two) to lekki koszmar. Tak czy inaczej, za 5000 z drugiej ręki to moim zdaniem wyśmienite kolumny. No i ta legenda:)

 

Pozdrawiam